Any digital artist well versed in motion capture knows that a successful session depends on the performance of the actors. Donavon Stinson has been a witness and participant in the motion capture journey, appearing in numerous films and video games since he became popular around the turn of the millennium, including Part 1 District 9, The King of Kings and The Ring and the franchise ” Mass Effect. The actor’s active roles include the Lifetime series UnREAL, Shadder’s zombie comedy Dead Shack, and the Nickelodeon revival Are You Afraid? It dark? “wait.
I had the opportunity to speak with Stinson about his career, including the motion capture workload, how filmmakers and creative directors work with motion capture actors, and how the technology continues to evolve. The discussion showed that motion capture performances are more than just tennis balls and spandex suits.
Did you first enter the acting world to do motion capture, or did you just go the traditional [acting] path?
I moved to Vancouver in ’97 and didn’t know if I wanted to pursue acting or something else. [I worked] in a coffee shop. A friend of mine worked for Mainframe Entertainment – they’re famous for Reboot, one of the first animated series in 3D – and they auditioned for a show called Heavy Gear. I never went to school to play. I have some gymnastic and combat experience.
I didn’t have an agent and my friend said, “Come on, see what happens.” I went in and there was a light so they could see my silhouette on the blank paper behind me. There was a guy named Luke Carroll, [and] director and stunt coordinator Kimani Ray Smith. He starred in “Eyes of the Snake” and now shoots a lot of things. He was active at the time and was still undersized. He finished Showdown in the Bronx. Anyway, he was my neighbor, he remembered me, I auditioned and got the role, it was like 47 episodes of this cartoon. I remember calling my mom and dad and saying, “You won’t believe it, man, these guys want to pay me $500 a day to jump around like a giant robot.”
Then it turned into extra work. Heavy Gear went from 46 or 47 episodes before I did a show called Action Man where I played Action Man and then Max Steel. We filmed a season of Spider-Man. I play Peter Parker and Spiderman. It just keeps going. But then EA and the game companies heard about me, I think I started at EA in 2002 [or] 2003.
I think it happens to some extent under the hood. I think being able to play a lot of different characters in one day [helped me]. To this day I still get invited because I can play six different characters. I’ve done Marvel, I’ve played everyone from the Hulk to Wolverine to Deadpool to Spiderman to Iron Man. Just years of experience and so many jobs, it gave me more and more jobs.
But it’s such an interesting area, because in movies and TV, you obviously see your face, you hear your voice, and that’s [you] on the screen. And the capture of movements was and is some kind of element, who knows? You see only the body. Back in the early 2000s, the UBCP Consortium didn’t even know how to classify motion capture actors. They classified us as a puppet show because they said, “I don’t understand. So you can’t hear his voice, not his voice, not his face, only his body.” in this category.” That was until [Andy] Serkis really put it on the line with Gollum, and Gollum was like, “Oh my god, look at this thing called motion capture.”
I think motion capture technology is evolving at a pretty fast pace. Have you noticed how the approach of filmmakers has changed over the years?
Yes. It is always, always evolving. I think over the past decade the Vicon system, the many camera systems that many studios use, the head units, the HMCs that actors use now. I remember The Lord of the Rings, we played The Two Towers and The Return of the King when the movie came out and it was really cool because we saw Sauron’s mouth first. We’re like, “Oh my God, look at this.” So, Kimani and a couple of other actors, we’ll be playing many different characters again. Just like I did Gollum and Legolas and Gandalf, Kimani did Aragorn and a bunch of different human characters and trolls, orcs – a lot of orcs.
We continued to watch another movie called The Lord of the Rings: The Third Age. This was the first time we used face capture. It’s in EA. At this point, they are accustomed to placing markers. Now they just dots, they just do make-up, so you have blackheads all over your face. Back then, man, they put little markers on, I mean everywhere, because back then it didn’t evolve like it does today, cameras and all. So you need a lot of markers. It will go around your eyebrows and they will stand out. They are on your eyelashes, lips and nose. If you just wipe your face lightly, the traces fly off, and then you have to stop, and they have to be glued back.
So moving from those markers that were meant to capture a face to what we have now is just a project we’re working on that I can’t talk about. They can make my mark on my face in five minutes and then you draw your face and then you’re done and you’re ready to go obviously in your suit and everything. So it’s very different. It’s easier for us actors and I think it’s a lot less invasive, if you will.
Labeling methods have changed. When we started working on Heavy Gear again and all these cartoons and stuff, even at EA, markers were like ping pong. SNL always makes fun of motion capture or what it shows, like the guy in the green suit with the ping pong ball. But they are huge. They were rock solid and that’s when we did crazy stunts. We shot fight scenes, sometimes for eight hours a day we put fights, built things, did tricks, launched things, landed. Sometimes I look like I have polka dots all over my body, just from head to toe. And then eventually the technology changed, the markings changed, the costumes changed.
We used to wear football helmets for headgear and stuff or just for head markers – so they were very sweaty and hot and very uncomfortable, especially when you were doing tricks. And now, if we’re doing something that isn’t a performance capture, it’s just a couple of points. Then they promoted technology. There are three or four people in this space, it is not necessary in terms of volume, it sometimes collapses. Right now I’m working at Beyond Studios, a local motion capture studio, and [they] can now take up to 10 people – a lot of them. I think most go to 10. EA can do the same, Ubisoft and so on.
So it’s very different. Obviously the camera can’t wear anything reflective like Nike sneakers or something like that. But I remember the first time we saw live footage, I think in The Lord of the Rings, they had cameras in space and we were looking at ourselves on real monitors. Then it was not so detailed. Now we’re making a game that just came out, it’s made with gameplay, and then your models are put in there. So fast now. It’s so streamlined that it’s easy to say, “Well, this guy is a troll. He is a giant troll. Boom, place the model on the skeleton and you’re done. Here he is”.
So it’s great, especially for an actor who can see who you’re playing. Because a lot of times when you walk in you see your character’s bio, usually drawn in pre-production or something, and you’ll have a description of the character and then a picture of the character, and then that’s it. But now you can see the model on your skeleton in real time, so I can go to the director and say, “OK. He has a big belly, he’s quite big, and he also wears a belt or something. “Don’t really bend over. Do it. I can’t bend over.” This way you can see where your limitations are as an actor and what you can do. He has changed dramatically.
Now every actor wants to do motion capture. It is now considered a different form of performance, whereas it used to be similar to Gollum. “My baby.” No one knows that I do this, I can take on all the work.
How much acting experience and training can you bring to motion capture? When you were in the mocap scene, as an actor, did you feel the need to introduce any new technologies?
Motion capture robs you of everything. You’re wearing a spandex suit and they can see everything. So, if you hesitate, you should be somewhat comfortable in your own skin. It really makes you feel comfortable in silence. Just because the word “exercise” is in the title doesn’t mean you have to move all the time.
I’m an avid gamer and I’ve played games that felt like moving for the sake of moving when it wasn’t necessary. We call it the pizza hand, and it’s like, “I’m saying you just have to keep moving your hand. What’s going on there? I don’t know.” So they are two completely different things. You will see in movies and TV that people will try to use these anchors because you have the props. I now have a cigarette, a pen or pockets. I can put my hands in my pockets. With motion capture, you can’t do that. Obviously they are hard to animate and it just leads to extra work if you’re going to pretend you have something you shouldn’t have. Arms crossed, hands on hips, okay.
But if you just stay still, with your hands on your hips, and do nothing, you will feel comfortable enough not to feel like you have to move all the time. So when you take what you’ve learned from the mockup shoots you do and apply it to your film and television work, I think it improves your productivity because you don’t think about all the other things you have. is in the dialogues. you need to do. I don’t care who you are: people get nervous when there’s a camera and crew around. When you are in a mockup space, you are alone in that space, and that evokes the different types of imagination actors have to use.
So if I’m doing a scene – Age of Dragons comes to mind – I’m fighting a giant spider, which is a stick, we used to call it a terrible stick because people liked to fight with it. . It’s just a hockey stick wrapped in padding, nothing more. You should really bring this view. There are no sounds to turn off, no special effects, no practical effects, no people in monster costumes or anything like that. So the ability to connect to this primal instinct, I think you would say, the ability to connect to this breath, you know what I mean? I just think it’s a completely different form of acting and I wish every actor had the opportunity to do it because it has helped me in film and TV to be sure to be comfortable in my own skin and not overdo it.
No, the show isn’t going anywhere. Traditional cinema is never going anywhere. But I just think it’s another tool that filmmakers can use. Video games aren’t going anywhere, and right now they make more money than movies. So there will always be motion capture. I just think it’s beneficial for the filmmakers to use it sparingly in certain things. Remember when Final Fantasy only had motion capture? There are other feature films as well. Final Fantasy is a bad movie. It’s all motion capture. And The Polar Express, Beowulf, and Monster House are all Zemeckis films. Back then, the technology was young and in its infancy. So there is still a lot of learning curve. While they may have been successful at the box office or elsewhere, they are still young. I think the filmmakers probably didn’t know how to use it.
But now I don’t know if The Mandalorian used it, but I’m sure it probably did. I haven’t seen the fakes yet, but this kind of technology, this kind of face capture, that’s what they did with the deepfake they used on Luke in Mando. And the upcoming Raiders of the Lost Ark, where I’m pretty sure they also use face capture to reduce age. I’ve seen photos of Harrison Ford with a marker on it. I think it will only help if it’s good for the story, good for the movie, and they use it not just because it’s there, but for free,
But I don’t think it’s going anywhere. I think it will only get better. I remember Damien Gordon, who used to head motion capture at Mainframe. He went on to make sequels to The Matrix and is still in the business. I remember once talking to him about water, is it possible. He’s already thinking about it. This was in the early 2000s. But the water is reflective, and it is almost impossible to do this. But James Cameron, being a scientist, came up with [for Avatar: The Path of Water]. Now you see it in Marvel movies. Robert Downey Jr. is standing there, wearing a suit. It’s not necessarily the same technology, it’s the Vicon reflective marker system. I just think it will be another tool that directors and actors use. There are more IPs available for people to use motion capture to create their movies.
You also seem to be very knowledgeable about the actual technology being used. Does it help in understanding the technology behind it? Does it improve your productivity and how you feel on set when you have all this technology?
I think it’s important for any actor to know all the elements of what he’s doing. You don’t want to just hang out there. “Can I do it?” You want to be able to understand your limitations, what you can and cannot do. Obviously, you will learn a lot from my 20+ years of motion capture experience. But yeah, when you’re on set, I keep asking questions like it’s my first week on the job. “Can I do it with this prop?” For example, a few weeks ago I worked at Ubisoft in Montreal. I’m like a kid in a candy store because their system doesn’t look like some of the systems I’ve worked on. Like, “Wow, this hat is so different from everything else.”
In my mind, I thought, “Oh, they used magnets instead of Velcro to attach this support to my stuff?” You have to be constantly curious. I think it’s also a constant learning curve. Sometimes I went from project to project after project and sometimes I didn’t even know what I was doing until the day I showed up on set because the video game industry is so mysterious. Sometimes they say, “We can’t say anything. Just come and do it.” m Shepherd? God! “So curious and excited about your work, I think you need it. A little tech knowledge will help. You can’t put your hands on the marker. As I mentioned earlier, big round head, look at the model. For example: “Can I do this? Can I Can I move like this No you can’t because he weighs about 350 pounds or he’s very light and he walks like a pixie or something.
Real time definitely helps now, but of course actors should always be asking questions like this. Anyway, I know. I have probably also pissed off a lot of the people I work with. I know. But they want the best from me.
I want to know the people who mentor you, guide you and supervise you on this shoot. Is the main director doing most of the work or is there a second crew? I’m also interested in video game sets. Are there directors of cutscenes and performances in video games?
What usually happens with the cartoons that I do, with Barbie movies, Heavy Gear and then Action Man, they all have an episode director. The director of this sequence is usually the keyframe animator or just the animator in general. They worked together and at the time his name was Luke Carroll and he was in charge of everything. He’s the one who works with the actors. He’s a guy, and we’re going to have animations – old-fashioned VHSs, how old-fashioned – where we’ll watch a storyboard animation, and all the off-screen artists will talk, talk, talk. lip-synching, and doing all those things right there. Luke ordered us to lie down on the floor and do all these things, all the things that a director would do.
When I started working more at EA and companies like Ubisoft, Capcom, etc., they would sometimes outsource another director. But most of the time it’s just a game command. Thus, the game team is people working on their computers, they work around the clock and seven days a week, they think about the game. Therefore, they sometimes come down and lead us from above. Sometimes there are misunderstandings because many game animators are not professional directors. They are good at what they do, good at what they do. But it can be very difficult to convey this information to actors, to people.
I remember we did the cartoon “Little Stuart”, which was a very long time ago. I [play] the father and there is a camping scene. I remember Johnny Daryl, he was in charge there, he was a great director, a great friend. But there is another guy, I don’t know his name, he seems to be the main animator of the series. In this scene, the father is stung by a bee and he jumps into the air – something comedic. So I made a move and he said, “Yeah, that was really good, man. Great job, dude. But is there a way to get him stung again when he jumps in the air, Sting, so that he flies a little higher? I’m like, “So you want me to defy gravity?” And he’s like, “Yeah, only if you think you can.” Like, “Um, no, dude.” revive without knowing that we really have limitations.
When I think of video game stories with cinematic storytelling, Mass Effect is one of the top stories that comes to mind. I don’t think you even need to play it, you can just sit in a room and just take this story and watch other people play it because it’s so vast. So I have to imagine that there are different levels of orientation accuracy for these types of projects.
Yes, some games give more freedom. In particular, in this game they were like: “You have to say exactly what is written in the script.” Sometimes you can explain a little, add “no” or “no” or something like that. But they’re like, “No, that’s how it should be. You have to say it.” So it’s hard, especially when they do facials and you keep screwing up. I am very demanding of myself. I am a perfectionist and I want everything to be perfect, even my voice.
Some gaming teams can be very picky and want everything to be perfect, while some games are not. In Mass Effect, I didn’t have a voice. So we have the right to vote. But in terms of overall scene blocking, we have a bit of freedom. I had the idea, “Hey man, what if I had to take cover when I came in, instead of running for cover and having a conversation and then skipping it?” “Yes, that would be great.” . Let’s try.”
No no no. So, Jason [Kepp], that gentleman you mentioned in the article, so he’s at the scene, right? So when they filmed in South Africa, he was actually there, live. So when they filmed on set, he was actually there and did that shrimp there. For us, when we got here and worked with Animatrik, we were just in the studio as we lined up for food and then jumped on the fridge and filled up the city.
It’s funny, we didn’t even know what we were doing when we filmed it. We do not know. It was a time when there was a lot of motion capture going on, so we just got to work and got to work. So many times, like I said, I’ve come in and said, “I don’t know what I’m doing.” We didn’t know it would be Zone 9. They’re like, “You are these aliens.” Obviously, we saw the model and went for it. We don’t know what we’re doing. But no stilts.
I remember even when this movie came out, even the marketing for it was, “What the hell is this?”
I think I was sitting in the theater when the trailer was shown and I thought, “I think I’m fucking doing this.” I swear… District 9 is cool, man. I’m glad it worked out that way in the end, and not just some weird Doritos ad or something like that.
I talk to you a lot about motion capture, but you also have a lot of merit in film and television. I’m just wondering if you have any shared stories about the big projects you’re working on. I actually found your Fantastic Four scene on YouTube.
Yes, motorcycles. That’s when I first started. Yeah dude. I remember seeing Chris Evans and thinking, “Yeah.” I smoked a cigarette. I thought, “Well, this is Chris Evans.” Now it’s Captain America. But there isn’t much to say about this. That’s all. At the time, I was just trying to get everything I could get.
My first show was Dark Angel. I think I’m an ambulance driver or something. I never had any prior knowledge of how it would work on set. I show up. It was a night shoot, as far as I remember. Then I showed up and rented a car. I got in my little car, they call it the honey car. These are very small trailers. They give them to day players and so on. You only have one line and you get a small room. I was so excited that I went into the closet and sat there for three hours. Then I went to the set and filmed my scenes. I remember it was with Michael [Weatherly].
But anyway, they installed a camera, and the camera sort of went through the driver’s front side window, and he was over his shoulder. I was eating a sandwich and thinking, “Yeah, I thought I saw her leave that thing,” blah blah blah. They didn’t realize at the time that they had to rotate the cameras to get its coverage. I just keep going to the left. I got out of the car and no one came up to me and said: “Hey, go sit in the tent and wait.” They’re like, “Okay, okay, well done, Donovan.” Then I went back to my nice car, got out of the closet, got dressed and drove home. I remember walking into the house and my roommate was sitting on the couch and he was like, “Oh my God, dude, have you already done that?” I’m like, “Yeah, man, this show is a breeze, man. Appeared, made and left.
The phone rang twenty minutes later. I do not have a phone. This is my home phone. This is the third ad. He’s like, “Where are you?” I’m like, “I’m home, man. Where are you?” He’s like, “Dude, you should come back here.” So awkward, so nervous. It was something like, “Oh my God, my first job.” I walked up to the set and everyone applauded. Everyone likes to applaud because they know I’m new, you know what I mean? This is my first time on set. But I was late for half an hour in production. Since then, I don’t think I’ve ever been late for a show. I always say: “Guys, you definitely don’t like it … I can stay for another four hours. Are you sure I’m done?”
Yes. But the Fantastic Four is like a dumb character. I have no idea. They made me put on this ridiculous [beanie] and then I just had to pretend I was looking at Johnny Storm. “ABOUT!” I wish there was a better story. But no, that’s all.
I know this show was produced and created by James Cameron and Neill Blomkamp was the animator. I was wondering if there was a connection between all this high tech motion capture technology and your work on the James Cameron projects and then the Neil Blomkamp projects.
I hope so. But no, to be honest, just bad luck. I’m incredibly lucky to be able to do what I do, and most of the time I just think “in the right place, at the right time.”
You have also made films that use a lot of visual effects. As I see you in Warcraft, it’s not necessary that you play a motion capture character.
Actually, the reason I got the role was because I auditioned for motion capture. I went and read a lot of stuff about orc sports. And I’m not that big, you know what I mean? I’m not a big guy unless I’ve had a couple of beers all summer. I don’t understand, but the director loves me. Someone asked me if I just want to play this role. I also do a lot of comedies, so it should be a fun role. Who would say no, right? I thought the coolest thing was to go into the props room, go into this huge warehouse, and I was like, ‘Oh my God, they’re really going to make big boots, big gloves, big swords and all that.’ m happy to do so. It’s funny because this movie had such a big budget. Sometimes you come to sets and they just don’t seem the same because they just seem like money.
Post time: Mar-06-2023